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Thread: Atl Mike's quad gold pouch 2013/14

  1. #1
    Site Admin Senior member Colchesterhunter's Avatar
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    Atl Mike's quad gold pouch 2013/14

    Quad gold, rare Roman silver, great hams and widgets makes this a definite pouch of the year contender. Some excellent early greenies also in his pouch Shit this took a while Mike's very first outing with his new CTX after ditching his old hairdryer this year


    1821 George IV milled gold full sovereign


    20thC 14k gold Mexican Madonna pendant

    2ndC Roman silver sent for ID - cleaned up now
    2.94g, 16.76mm
    1stC Roman silver sent for ID
    2.94g, 16.76mm
    If you believe in "good omens", this might well be a hint that this will be an exceptional season. This denarius is scarce-to-rare and in demand as a "dynastic piece", portraying all three of the Flavians. Vespasian issued it and the two figures seated on curule chairs on the reverse are Titus and Domitian. This piece, from the mint at Rome (* see below), dates to relatively early in Vespasian's rule, c. 69-70.
    The legends are "almost" clear to read now, if you know what you're looking for. I trust that if you cook this one, the legends will become much more readable in general. The obverse - portrait of Vespasian - is: IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG / the reverse, with the seated Caesars is: TITVS ET DOMITIAN CAESARES PRIN IVEN* - PrincipiI Iuventutis: "The Princes of Youth" (which was an official and titled position, it can also be read as "The young princes" which is just a description - Latin syntax does not depend on the order of words in a sentence so occasionally interpretation of quotes and inscriptions can be a bit ambiguous and when defining the original intent may be open to opinion.
    References:
    RIC vol II, i (new edition), Vespasian 6 (var - see note *) "rare", (25 in the old edition of vol II) ; RSC (Vespasian) 541b; SRCV 2403.
    * Something else which might be a bit ambiguous is the attribution to Rome. The piece quoted by RIC has a reverse legend which ends in "..IV" rather than "...IVEN". In fact, RIC II, i, does not quote the IVEN ending at all except in the footnotes. The IVEN ending, evidently, is associated with the mint at Lyon (Lugdunum) but is quoted only from a plated piece. I need to check with the "Not In RIC" folks and see if this is a typo, or whether this is a significant, unpublished rarity.
    Mark
    PS - I had never looked at the "Not in RIC" site before and it turns out to be only for vols VII & VIII - I might run this one past Curtis Clay, although looking at the listings in the "old" RIC II I see the IVEN variety listed, so it may only be a typo or simple omission in the new RIC.


    circa 15thC animal headed ewer spout

    18thC toy cannon

    Amazing double head strike 1430-34 Henry VI hammered silver groat - Pine cone Mascle issue - Initial mark cross potonce
    Pinecone and mascle in reverse legend - satire stops - Ref North 1461
    Obv HENRIC DI GRA REX ANGL Z FRANCE DNS HYB
    Rev VIL/LA/ CALI/SIE - Calais Mint
    3.63g, 28.7mm

    Groat(4 pence)3.63g, 28.7mm and a farthing (1/4 penny) 0.21g,10.81mm size comparison


    Very unusual 1272 Edward 1st hammered silver penny - reverse cross only completes on 3 segments - double strike - legend is a CIVI/TAS type but legend is blundered - not a sterling imitation
    Obv EDWAR ANGLE DNS HYB
    Rev - CIVI/TAS/ ??

    Addedomarus 45BC Celtic gold full stater - sent to CCI for recording & reported as potential addition hoard to museum - CCI 13.0487
    17.98mm, 5.57g


    1701 William III milled copper penny

    WWII Hawker Hurricane lead toy aeroplane - camouflage paint still showing

    Georgian gold fob chain decoration

    1208/9 King John hammered silver short cross penny - Class 6c
    Obv HENRICVS REX
    Rev RAVF ON LVNDE - Moneyer Ravf of London mint

    Interesting group of rough 1stC Roman big Sestertius bronzes found in the corner of a new field by At Mike - could be a potential hoaird there ?? A couple have some detail so I will send them off to mark Lehman for an ID.
    What you have likely found is a "lost purse", or a very small buried hoard. Sestertii were one of the real "workhorse" denominations in circulation during the years the Romans were most active in Britain. You find a lot of denarii (relatively speaking) because that is the sort of denomination which would be likely to be squirrelled-away as savings - a "store of value" for the average man who probably never saw a piece of gold change hands in his life. It was the sestertii, dupondii & asses which really got the day-to-day work done. I'm not all that sure what exactly is in ciculation in GB these days, 1967 having been the last time I visited, but in the US, I'd compare the larger coins to the $20, $10 & $5 bills - it's nearly impossible to draw comparisons between actual buying-power value, of course, since so many items in the "market basket" were vastly more or less expensive than today, but the 5, 10 & 20 make for the same levels of multiples - an as being half a dupondius and a quarter of a sestertius, and the sestertius, in turn, being a quarter of the denarius (so it doesn't quite hold up all the way through) but the denarius would be more on the order of a $100 bill - a day's pay for a soldier or tradesman. Maybe you'd take one with you if you were buying something major, but for day to day transactions, it was the large 's changing hands - buying a meal, modest lodging for the night, a mug of wine, etc, those sorts of things would be likely to be paid-for and priced in the range.
    So this find of 8 sestertii together represented a little bit of wealth - a couple hundred dollars,say - but not a massive sum. The group could have been lost as a purse by a normally solvent person and would have been missed, but would not, most likely, have been a total disaster. Or perhaps a clumsy "cutpurse" might have stashed his most recent acquisition and never returned to find it, having been caught on a subsequent foray into the marketplace...
    We can make up scenarios for this sort of sum of money fairly easily, since it is a comprehensible sum in comprehensible units the cognate of which we probably have in our own wallets (or would have if not quite so much of our commerce were conducted with plastic).
    In my opinion, the 1st example looks as though it might be a youthful portrait of Commodus, son of Marcus Aurelius and his successor -
    This is a youthful portrait of Commodus: http://www.stoa.org/gallery/album95/...s_Minerva_sest
    He grew a beard later on, but he was only a teen as seen here.

    While it might also be a younger portrait of Hadrian - before he cultivated his beard -
    http://www.stoa.org/gallery/album92/...Sest_Felicitas
    (Unfortunately I don't have a higher-quality example of portrait for Hadrian in in this early, nearly beardless era)

    the hair on your piece appears to be treated in the very curly style seen in M. Aurelius' and Commodus' portraits - see below for a Caesar-era M. Aurelius sestertius -
    http://www.stoa.org/gallery/album94/...s_Virtvs_Sest1 but the profile doesn't seem to match

    Your 2nd piece is, well, a good bit less easy to try to match - there is a portrait there - there seems not to be any beard (which pretty much rules out Hadrian, Antoninus Pius and M. Aurelius as Augusti) the head doesn't have the "bowling-ball" aspect of Trajan's portraits. I don't think it's one of the pre-adoptives (Caligula, Claudius, Nero, Galba or Vitellius - definitely not a Flavian) So I guess we have pretty much the same pool of possibilities to draw from. A very early Hadrian or M. Aurelius - although both were almost never shown completely beardless - or a young Commodus.
    That's about the best I can do, given the small amount of info available - these pieces were likely minted sometime in the 2nd century. The relatively stable fiscal and political situation in the 2nd century also fits for a "working" purseful of sestertii. They circulated long enough to often be worn almost smooth in this era, meaning there was never a good reason for them to be hoarded on any widespread basis.
    Mark


    1899 Victoria milled silver Florin (24 pence)



    1.20thC 14k gold Mexican Madonna pendant
    2.Addedomarus 45BC Celtic gold full stater - CCI 13.0487>>
    17.98mm, 5.57g>>
    3.1821 George IV milled gold full sovereign>>
    4.Georgian gold fob chain decoration>>
    5. Vespasian's Roman silver coin , c. 69-70 AD RIC vol II, i (new edition), Vespasian 6 (var - see note *) "rare", (25 in the old edition of vol II) ; RSC (Vespasian) 541b; SRCV 2403.>>
    6.1430-34 Henry VI hammered silver groat - Pine cone Mascle issue - Initial mark cross potonce Pinecone and mascle in reverse legend - satire stops - Ref North 1461 Obv HENRIC DI GRA REX ANGL Z FRANCE DNS HYB Rev VIL/LA/ CALI/SIE - Calais Mint 3.63g, 28.7mm>>
    7.1422 -1427 Henry VI hammered silver penny - annulate issue - pierced cross 1 1 in 2 quadrants Obv + HENRICVSxREXxANGLIE Rev - CIVI/TASLOND/DON>>
    8.1300-1310 Edward hammered silver penny - Class 10cf3 Obv EDWARR ANGL DNS HYB Rev CIVIAS/CAN/TOR - Canterbury mint>>
    9.1208/9 King John hammered silver short cross penny - Class 6c Obv HENRICVS REX Rev RAVF ON LVNDE - Moneyer Ravf of London mint>>
    10.1427- 1430 Henry VI hammered silver penny - mullets by crown- quatrefoil with pellet at centre of reverse cross - York mint - Archiepiscopal issue Obv HENRICVS REX ANGLIE Rev CIVI/TAS/EBO/RACI - York mint>>
    11.1696 William III milled silver sixpence>>
    12.1481 -83 Edward IV hammered silver farthing Obv EDWARD DI GRA REX>>
    Rev CIVI/TAS/LON/DON - London mint>>
    13.Very unusual 1272 Edward 1st hammered silver penny - reverse cross only completes on 3 segments - double strike - legend is a CIVI/TAS type but legend is blundered - not a sterling imitation Obv EDWAR ANGLE DNS HYB>>
    Rev - CIVI/TAS/ ??>>
    14.1595-8 Elizabeth 1st hammered silver penny - Key mintmark>>
    15.1602 Elizabeth 1st hammered silver half groat - 7th issue - 2 mint mark>>
    16.16th Elizabeth 1st hammered silver penny>>
    17.1300-10 Edward hammered silver farthing 0.21g,10.81mm - Type 28h>>
    New issue circle both sides Obv + EDWARDVS REX ANG Rev CIVI/TAS/LON/DON - London mint>>
    18.1344 Edward hammered silver penny - Florin issue Obv EDW R ANGL DNS HYB Rev CIVI/TAS/ type>>
    19.1580 Elizabeth 1st hammered silver sixpence>>
    20.Taco'd 1461 - 85 Edward IV hammered silver penny - C on breast- Canterbury mint






    1.16thC Elizabeth 1st hammered silver half groat
    2.1899 Victoria milled silver Florin (24 pence)>>
    3.1871 Victoria milled silver shilling (12 pence)>>
    4.1877 Victoria milled silver shilling (12 pence)>>
    5.1839 Victoria milled silver sixpence>>
    6.1831 William IV milled silver sixpence>>
    7.1696 William III milled silver sixpence - love token>>
    8.1696 William III milled silver sixpence - love token>>
    9.1931 George V milled silver sixpence>>
    10.1696 William III milled silver sixpence >>
    11.circa 15thC animal headed ewer spout>>
    14.18thC toy cannon>>
    15.1694 William III milled copper penny>>
    17.Roman armour hinged suspension loop- heart cut out type>>
    19.1701 William III milled copper penny >>
    20.circa 10thC Anglo- Scandinavian harness cheek piece>>
    >>

    1.WWII Hawker Hurricane lead toy aeroplane - camouflage paint still showing>>
    2. 18thC crotal bell>>
    3.1694 William III milled copper penny>>
    4. 1770s 1 guinea gold coin weight Obv S 21>>
    5.WWI Bedfordshire regiment lapel badge>>
    8.Druid's Head on Obverse of 1788 Anglesey Token Parys Mines>>
    9.16thC Tudor seal spoon handle>>
    11.15thC lead token>>
    12.1675 Charles II milled copper farthing>>
    13. 2ndC Roman bronze coin - illegible>>
    14.2ndC Roman bronze coin - illegible>>
    15.1877 Victoria Jersey 1/24th of a shilling coin half penny>>
    16. WWII Royal artillery cap badge>>
    18.2ndC Roman bronze coin - illegible>>
    19.2ndC Roman bronze coin - illegible>>
    20.2ndC Roman bronze coin - illegible>>

    22 18th to 20thC copper coins

    23 18th to 20thC copper coins>>

    25 18th to 20thC copper coins>>


    1. 17thC spoon handle
    3.Post Medieval cast copper alloy single loop buckle frame. 1500-1650 AD>>
    4.1586 Hans Krauwincel II Rose orb Jeton HANNS KRAVWINCKEL IN NVRENB>>
    5. 1586 Hans Krauwincel II Rose orb Jeton HANNS KRAVWINCKEL IN NVRENB>>
    6.2ndC Roman bronze coin - illegible>>
    7.2ndC Roman bronze coin - illegible>>
    8.1604-19 James 1st gold Angel coin weight - 2nd coinage, revalued Obv Crown XI S Rev Angel>>
    9. 13thC French jetton>>
    10. 1634 Charles 1st hammered copper rose farthing>>
    11. 2 Georgian watch winders>>
    12.18thC Continental billion silver coin - illegible>>
    13.2ndC Roman bronze coin - illegible>>
    14. Georgian silver button>>
    15. Victorian silver watch back fragment>>
    16. Post medieval lead alnage cloth seal>>
    17.Post medieval lead bale seal>>
    18.17thC hammered copper trade farthing>>
    19. Complete cast copper alloy buckle of post-medieval date. The buckle is a double loop asymmetrical shape Circa 1575- 1700>>
    20.Post Medieval cast copper alloy single loop buckle frame. 1500-1650 AD>>


    1.18 18th to 20thC copper coins>>
    13. Medieval bucket handle mount>>
    14.1770s 1 guinea gold coin weight Obv S 21>>
    15.1586 Hans Krauwincel II Rose orb Jeton HANNS KRAVWINCKEL IN NVRENB>>
    16.17thC hammered copper trade farthing>>
    17.1694 William III milled copper farthing>>
    19. 1500-1700 mount>>
    20.17thC hammered copper trade farthing>>

    1.27 lead musket balls
    9. 1500-1700 acorn mount>>
    10.Post medieval Russian lead bale seal>>
    11.Post medieval lead bale seal>>
    12.Post medieval lead bale seal>>
    13.Post medieval lead bale seal>>
    14.Post medieval Russian lead bale seal>>
    15.Post medieval alnage lead cloth seal>>
    16.Post medieval lead bale seal>>
    17.Post medieval lead hem weight>>
    18.Post medieval lead hanging weight>>
    19.Post medieval lead bale seal>>
    20. 17thC lead token>>



    70 Post Tudor buttons>>


    50 Post Tudor buttons>>



    1.16th Tudor button
    2. Georgian mount>>
    3. Post-medieval copper-alloy buckle frame C AD 1650-1720>>
    4. 18thc Royal navy button>>
    5. Victorian copper locket>>
    6. Georgian watch winder>>
    8. Post medieval lead alnage cloth seal>>
    9. 20thC harness buckle>>
    10.19thC harness buckle>>
    11. Medieval bronze pot foot>>
    12.Georgian draw pull back plate>>
    13. Victorian candle holder>>
    14. 2 Georgian thimbles>>
    16. Post medieval buckle>>
    17.Post medieval harness ring>>
    18. 19thC Colchester Bedwell token>>
    19.Post medieval harness ring>>
    20.Post-medieval copper-alloy buckle frame C AD 1650-1720>>



    1. 1500-1700 mount>>
    2. 2 Georgian watch winders>>
    3. Medieval spur end>>
    5.1634 Charles 1st hammered copper rose farthing>>
    6.Post medieval lead bale seal>>
    7. 2ndC Roman fibular brooch>>
    8. 3 18thC crotal bell fragments>>
    11. 5 buckle fragments>>
    14. 15thC lead token>>
    15. 2ndC Roman bronze coin - illegible>>
    16. Georgian silver spoon handle>>
    17.Post-medieval copper-alloy buckle frame C AD 1650-1720>>
    18.3 Georgian thimbles>>
    20.20thC harness buckle>>


    58 Post Tudor buttons>>


    1.20thC harness buckle>>
    3.Georgian watch winder>>
    4. Nail>>
    7. 16thC Tudor button>>
    8.3 buckle fragments>>
    9. Victorian copper lamp fitting>>
    10. Georgian copper pommel>>
    11. 5 rivets>>
    14.Georgian lead musket powder measure>>
    16. 17thC hammered copper trade farthing - illegible>>
    17.17thC hammered copper trade farthing - illegible>>
    19. Georgian lead tobacco jar lid handle >>

  2. #2
    GeoDoug
    Guest

    Brilliant Finds!!!!

  3. #3
    Senior Member Oregon Stuart's Avatar
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    Great pouch top to bottom. Brings up thoughts of pouch of the year!

  4. #4
    UtahBen
    Guest

    Congratulation Mike! That is an amazing pouch!

  5. #5
    FloridaGene
    Guest

    Great Pouch Mike. WTG

  6. #6
    Alberta John
    Guest

    Mike That is an Awesome Pouch, Congrats,. Could you also empty your private message box, I need to get a hold of you.

  7. #7
    AtlantaMike
    Guest

    Done John.

  8. #8
    NYJohn
    Guest

    Wow!

    Spectacular........

  9. #9
    NhBob
    Guest

    What a haul. Nice finds. Congrats!!!

  10. #10
    GeoDoug
    Guest

    Great finds Mike. Looking forward to hunting with ya this Sept.

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